Author Topic: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)  (Read 1497 times)

conradin

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Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« on: August 03, 2016, 02:27:41 PM »
Recently due to a philosophical dilemma when interviewed by NPR I begin to see maybe I am not in support of conceal carry.  I see that everyone should have the right to conceal carry.  However if we set up any restriction to bar individuals, someone will have to enforce it by making some judgement.  On another post I point out that there is a moral character clause in a lot of states, and the issuing authority for CCW is the local sheriff.  This means that your right to CCW depends on the personal interpretation of your own moral character by someone who can possibly 180' object to your own very existence...or in their world, your "lifestyle".  The same idea that MLK Junior can get denied a gun permit while KKK members have no problem getting one.  The same idea that all the black residents of a town be denied while all the whites get one.

My conclusion is that until we reform in such a way so that the minority is absolutely guaranteed to be able to arm themselves on conceal carry, by law, or without legal requirement, then I feel we are better off not having conceal carry.  This include any mental health laws that strip their CCW permit rights if they were in mental institution for any treatment for being trans, sometimes in their life.  Heck, sometimes being gay.   I wonder how many of you ended up in mental hospital because of the depression you develop from the social stress and discrimination on you for being gay sometimes in your lifetime..especially when you were still young?  How many LGBT youths or  in their early 20s had attempted suicide and was thus in the mental hospital sometimes in their lives once? 

This does not change my view that you still can use firearms to defend yourself at your home, place of business, etc.  I also even advocate open carry with no restriction because everyone can see you carry. 

Self defense is a god given right, and conceal carry is part of it.  So if it takes man to make laws to determine who gets to keep that right, and such laws have flaws that actually strip away the rights for those vulnerable in need of self defense the most, then we are better off taking away every one to level the playing field.  Either almost everyone can have one (even felons with non violent criminal record), or we should restrict it to the point that only very few can have them and be identified publicly (such as off duty active LEO).

This is really directed to Gwen, since the conceal carry seems to be the mission statement of our organization.  I actually did not even KNOW anything about conceal carry until at least the 2nd year that I was involved with PP.  I did not know conceal carry was part of our mission statement until my third year.  I don't know being theoretically support conceal carry but on practical level I am against it until there is a complete reform will mean I actually should not be a pink pistol.  Up to this point I am still an instructor who can teach a person all the way up to NRA conceal carry certifications.  So at least I am qualified on having the practical skill of CCW to speak about it. 

Really, if you are a transwoman, and live in a state where your sheriff can disqualify you for being a moral degenerate to have a CCW, and disqualify all your LGBT friends also base on that; while your entire county are full of Xtian fundamentalists and homophobes, including your very own sheriff, would you prefer that there should be no CCW issued in your county? Moving out of the county is not an option.
   


gerhard1

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 04:23:49 PM »
Not Gwen, but are you aware that in  all but eight states, it is 'shall issue'?  That is, the issuing authority must issue a CCW upon application by a person who qualifies for it.  So, it seems to me as though your problem is taken care of unless you are a resident of one of these eight states.


Jarrod Matham

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 07:35:52 PM »
I live in Los Angeles County, which has a population of 10,000,000. Concealed carry is unlikely, even if I go down to the Sheriff's office and request a permit. I have to prove I live in the County, that I am employed, that I am of good moral character and that I have a compelling need for such a permit...you know, because the Constitution is not an overriding factor to such arbitrary conditions.

If I moved to Del Norte County, with a population of 28,000, pifft, I don't need to explain nuttin. They'll issue it for me.

Tis a reason why I'm moving to Texas next year.
"Cowards die many times before their deaths, The valiant never taste of death but once." - Julius Caeser

Branth

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2016, 02:32:15 AM »
In the vast majority of states, if you do not have one of a list of very specific disqualifying factors (such as felony convictions, drug convictions, or being INVOLUNTARILY committed to a mental institution) you cannot be denied a permit.

Now, it's definitely true that the mental health system, like all systems, can and has been used to strip rights from people who should not have them stripped, but the same is true of every system.  That is not an argument for abolishing the system, but an argument for improving it.

After all, just because every legal system in existence has on occasion convicted an innocent man doesn't mean that we should all live in anarchy.  It just means we should work to continually improve them.

I guess what it comes down to is, "Don't let 'perfect' be the enemy of 'good.'"

Mr Ed

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2016, 10:02:33 AM »
Yes, there are now, and will probably continue to be, injustices in the granting of concealed carry permits. I live in Maryland and we are the epicenter of restriction of permits.

I am a firearms instructor, and one of the biggest lessons I can convey to anyone considering carrying a firearm for self defense is that it's something that you should pray you never use. In my state, the simple act of displaying a firearm in public is a crime called 'brandishing'. Even if it's still in the holster. There are only three conditions which allow for the defensive use of a firearm: imminent threat of death, rape or kidnapping. If a person brandishes or uses his firearm, they had better articulate one of those three beliefs to the law enforcement officers who respond. In MD, we are guilty until proven innocent, and even then it's a crap shoot.

It's different in some parts of the country, and armed self defense preparedness is considered the standard. I encourage everyone who is considering legally arming themselves to do their research, give more serious thought to that decision than anything else in your life, then act accordingly. If you choose to become armed, get appropriate training and practice, practice, practice. Not just punching holes in paper targets, but any kind of defensive/action events you can find. IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) has local events that combine drawing from a concealed holster, shooting at complicated targets, and moving in its drills. The NRA has certified instructors who teach Personal Protection in the Home, Outside the Home, and other classes designed to enhance a person's skills as well as decision making about shoot/no-shoot situations.

Using a firearm in self defense is an act that will change a person's life forever. Your life will never be the same. You may go to jail until the situation has been investigated. You likely will lose your firearm. You may have to spend thousands of dollars to hire a defense attorney even if you are not guilty of a crime. You may face civil suits from the criminal who attacked you (if they are alive) or from their survivors. And the list goes on. The only benefit (that you should articulate to anybody) of using a firearm for self defense is that you will still be alive. Your life will never be the same, but you will be alive. It is a personal choice that only you can make, and it isn't to be taken lightly.

For many of us, we believe that it is better to have the chance of saving our own life (or the lives of our loved ones) than to simply surrender to whatever a criminal chooses to do.

Werz Waldeau

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 11:32:03 AM »
My conclusion is that until we reform in such a way so that the minority is absolutely guaranteed to be able to arm themselves on conceal carry, by law, or without legal requirement, then I feel we are better off not having conceal carry.
It is flawed thinking to conclude, "If some don't have it, nobody should have it."  Yes, it's very egalitarian and equalitarian, but it's counterproductive.  You need to understand how concealed carry developed in this country since the 1980s.  Many states (including mine) did not allow it at all, and many of the ones which did were "may issue" states.  Then the movement began, and most states which adopted concealed carry laws did so as "shall issue" states.  When those states were successful, without the predicted "blood in the streets" and "Wild West" tales of horror, more states followed suit.  Since then, several states have adopted unlicensed concealed carry, and the movement to reduce restrictions on concealed carry continue almost everywhere.  The successful process is one of leading by example, not an arbitrary "all or none" demand.

Branth

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 01:15:07 PM »
My conclusion is that until we reform in such a way so that the minority is absolutely guaranteed to be able to arm themselves on conceal carry, by law, or without legal requirement, then I feel we are better off not having conceal carry.
It is flawed thinking to conclude, "If some don't have it, nobody should have it."  Yes, it's very egalitarian and equalitarian, but it's counterproductive.  You need to understand how concealed carry developed in this country since the 1980s.  Many states (including mine) did not allow it at all, and many of the ones which did were "may issue" states.  Then the movement began, and most states which adopted concealed carry laws did so as "shall issue" states.  When those states were successful, without the predicted "blood in the streets" and "Wild West" tales of horror, more states followed suit.  Since then, several states have adopted unlicensed concealed carry, and the movement to reduce restrictions on concealed carry continue almost everywhere.  The successful process is one of leading by example, not an arbitrary "all or none" demand.

Well said.

Fiddy-One Gyrojet

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 05:31:46 AM »
There's mountains of legislation that unfairly target minorities and leave white folk alone.  Would you rather work to repair those faulty laws so nobody is oppressed by them, or work to get them to target everyone because that's "fair"? 

 Regardless of one's desire to impose their individual perception of "fairness", it'd be less work to undo what we messed up instead of messing it up for everyone then trying to do it all at once.  Not to mention that trying to infringe on the inalienable rights of bigots who tout flawed logic will only make them hate you more for dehumanizing them.  Instead, you can somewhat humanize yourself by showing a strong conviction to a cause you have in common. 

When we have to run damage control for the assault of gun control next year, remember that we can win it by holding our noses and seeing enemies of one front as allies in another.  There's no true centralization of homophobes, of course, so while most groups with anti-gay leanings should be completely avoided, some joint work could be mutually advantageous and fend off a much more oppressive threat.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 05:45:26 AM by Fiddy-One Gyrojet »

Ko Improbable

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2016, 07:36:10 AM »
Think of the diverse levels of acceptance of open and/or concealed carry as a work in progress.  It is easier to go from no carry to may issue to shall issue to "constitutional carry," than it is to go straight from no carry to "constitutional carry."

Here in Missouri, we've really shown that.  Our own frickin' state constitution listed concealed carry as an exception to our right to keep and bear!  We made a whole bunch of concessions to get enough votes to get concealed carry to pass in the first place, and then we started refining it, year after year, taking many of those concessions away.  We had to refine the law, right off the bat, because a few cities and counties threw temper tantrums about having to let people exercise their human right, using "it will cost us money!" as an excuse not to process any permits.  We kept lowering the age, lowering the class requirements, etc.
This year, we passed constitutional carry, with a great enough support in our state legislature to override the governor's veto.  In the dawning of 2017, Missouri residents will need no permit to carry a firearm openly or concealed, as long as they're old enough to own it.

Part of why I'm telling you this is that, if we decide to go with an "all or nothing" approach, every state will have to start over from scratch with this process.  The other side of the coin is that, instead of making it equal by taking it away from everyone, work on making it equal by pushing to refine the inequalities out such that everyone can carry.

gerhard1

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2016, 07:03:56 AM »
Think of the diverse levels of acceptance of open and/or concealed carry as a work in progress.  It is easier to go from no carry to may issue to shall issue to "constitutional carry," than it is to go straight from no carry to "constitutional carry."

Here in Missouri, we've really shown that.  Our own frickin' state constitution listed concealed carry as an exception to our right to keep and bear!  We made a whole bunch of concessions to get enough votes to get concealed carry to pass in the first place, and then we started refining it, year after year, taking many of those concessions away.  We had to refine the law, right off the bat, because a few cities and counties threw temper tantrums about having to let people exercise their human right, using "it will cost us money!" as an excuse not to process any permits.  We kept lowering the age, lowering the class requirements, etc.
This year, we passed constitutional carry, with a great enough support in our state legislature to override the governor's veto.  In the dawning of 2017, Missouri residents will need no permit to carry a firearm openly or concealed, as long as they're old enough to own it.

Part of why I'm telling you this is that, if we decide to go with an "all or nothing" approach, every state will have to start over from scratch with this process.  The other side of the coin is that, instead of making it equal by taking it away from everyone, work on making it equal by pushing to refine the inequalities out such that everyone can carry.
The situation that you describe is similar to that of Kansas.  On various Gun boards, the new law was roundly and severely criticised for all of the compromises that the law's sponsors had made. The cries of 'what part of "shall not be infringed" did they not understand?' among other things were frequently heard on the pro-gun fora.

What these critics failed to realize was that these compromises were needed to get the votes necessary to pass the law in the first place.  Like Missouri, Kansas went from 'no-issue'   to shall-issue, and finally to constitutional carry and what amazes me is that they did it in the space of ten years.  They also had to to override two vetoes (Three if you count Graves' veto which was not overridden) but first, they had to get their foot in the door and they did this despite vicious and often unfair opposition from a very hostile media as well as both Democratic and GOP governors.

But the first thing they had to do was convince the critics and the skeptics that the law would not be a bloody disaster, and then when the public saw that the much-ballyhooed predictions of blood flowing in the streets over 'every fender bender, and each disputed parking place' did not come to pass, much of the opposition to CCW disappeared. 

But first they had to pass the initial law.  Without those compromises, that would not have happened.  My point here should be apparent:  'compromise' is not always a dirty word.

Incidentally, I'm still waiting for the blood to flow in the streets.  I imagine that I'll have to wait a good deal longer.

HuckleberryFun

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2016, 12:33:22 PM »
Recently due to a philosophical dilemma when interviewed by NPR I begin to see maybe I am not in support of conceal carry.  I see that everyone should have the right to conceal carry.  However if we set up any restriction to bar individuals, someone will have to enforce it by making some judgement.  On another post I point out that there is a moral character clause in a lot of states, and the issuing authority for CCW is the local sheriff.  This means that your right to CCW depends on the personal interpretation of your own moral character by someone who can possibly 180' object to your own very existence...or in their world, your "lifestyle".  The same idea that MLK Junior can get denied a gun permit while KKK members have no problem getting one.  The same idea that all the black residents of a town be denied while all the whites get one.

My conclusion is that until we reform in such a way so that the minority is absolutely guaranteed to be able to arm themselves on conceal carry, by law, or without legal requirement, then I feel we are better off not having conceal carry.  This include any mental health laws that strip their CCW permit rights if they were in mental institution for any treatment for being trans, sometimes in their life.  Heck, sometimes being gay.   I wonder how many of you ended up in mental hospital because of the depression you develop from the social stress and discrimination on you for being gay sometimes in your lifetime..especially when you were still young?  How many LGBT youths or  in their early 20s had attempted suicide and was thus in the mental hospital sometimes in their lives once? 

This does not change my view that you still can use firearms to defend yourself at your home, place of business, etc.  I also even advocate open carry with no restriction because everyone can see you carry. 

Self defense is a god given right, and conceal carry is part of it.  So if it takes man to make laws to determine who gets to keep that right, and such laws have flaws that actually strip away the rights for those vulnerable in need of self defense the most, then we are better off taking away every one to level the playing field.  Either almost everyone can have one (even felons with non violent criminal record), or we should restrict it to the point that only very few can have them and be identified publicly (such as off duty active LEO).

This is really directed to Gwen, since the conceal carry seems to be the mission statement of our organization.  I actually did not even KNOW anything about conceal carry until at least the 2nd year that I was involved with PP.  I did not know conceal carry was part of our mission statement until my third year.  I don't know being theoretically support conceal carry but on practical level I am against it until there is a complete reform will mean I actually should not be a pink pistol.  Up to this point I am still an instructor who can teach a person all the way up to NRA conceal carry certifications.  So at least I am qualified on having the practical skill of CCW to speak about it. 

Really, if you are a transwoman, and live in a state where your sheriff can disqualify you for being a moral degenerate to have a CCW, and disqualify all your LGBT friends also base on that; while your entire county are full of Xtian fundamentalists and homophobes, including your very own sheriff, would you prefer that there should be no CCW issued in your county? Moving out of the county is not an option.
 

Thank you for your thoughtful post. Obviously you've been thinking a lot about this. Your example of a Trans or lesbian/gay person being denied a CCW by some redneck Sherriff is a good one, but gerhard and others rightfully point out that the great majority of states are "shall issue," so that Sherriff cannot deny a permit to LGBT people even if he wanted to. You are right, though, that LGBT people who have been institutionalized (however briefly or long ago) for reasons directly related to their "disorder" have a hard row to hoe. That's an injustice that should somehow be corrected.

Ko Improbable

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2016, 09:55:57 AM »
My point here should be apparent:  'compromise' is not always a dirty word.

'Compromise' isn't a dirty word when used in the context of its actual definition.  When the protection inequality groups use it, they mean 'surrender.'

Branth

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2016, 02:15:54 PM »

HuckleberryFun

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 07:00:06 PM »
The cake is already gone. We must start over and bake another one...

gordon5280

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Re: Am I still a PP? (Especially to Gwen)
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 10:42:17 AM »
Prohibition never works, unless you ban prohibition.