Author Topic: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)  (Read 1437 times)

conradin

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Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« on: July 30, 2016, 04:14:31 PM »
A careful study of local state laws you will find a lot of states have blanket, no due-process prohibition for conceal carry application in terms of metal health issues.  This ranging from disallowing someone having a conceal carry simply for being a diagnosed with a mental illness of any sort, to having been voluntarily entered a psychiatric hospital once, to explicitly listing certain illnesses that is irrelevant but can disqualify an individual.

I certainly won't think that a friend who went into a psychiatric hospital voluntarily when she was 18 for a eating disorder should be stripped of her conceal carry rights, especially if she reportedly was threatened by locals who wanted to teach her how to be "a real woman".   On the federal level she did not even need to file a partition since it was voluntary.  Even if it were not voluntary she could file and nothing could stop her from purchasing a handgun.  Yet in many states the only time she could use it was for home defense.   Not practical.

I have met lots of trans people and have quite a few friends.  A lot of them do have to have some mental help one time or another, and of course, therapy is almost inevitably a part of their lives if they can afford it.  This means the most vulnerable portion of our LGBT community that needed to conceal carry the most happened to be the most likely portion to have large percentages to be denied their right to carry based on outdated laws or laws based on ignorance or fear or stereotype.

I have no answer, other than mental health care reform, including the laws.  This is the 2010s, not 1920s, a mental health institution now treats lots of illnesses that logically have nothing to do with firearm ownership.  Eating disorder. ADHD, Alcohol Detox.

I am always against the idea of banning someone from owning a firearm because one is a harm to himself only.  I talked with therapists and they would told me that there are other methods that people used to end their lives just as effective and quick.  In a way, firearm is the more humane way.  You can ban a person from owning a firearm but you cannot ban him from jumping out of his apartment window on the 3rd floor.  Some of them can certainly overdose their own medications intentionally and you cannot ban them from owning their own medication either.   I understand the need morally to stop someone from making an impulsive suicide, but on the other hand how do we really know if the person is impulsive?  I am speaking as a person who lost a close friend through suicide.  To this day while I mourn losing her, I did not disagree with her decision.  Using a firearm meant she is no longer in pain now, and it broke my heart every time I saw her in pain and for each treatment it got worse: she wanted to commit suicide for a long time, and ultimately she did it with a firearm it really did not matter.

Finally The Federal level of course recognize this and you can always have your second amendment right restored by filing to the proper channel, but apparently on the state level there is no such thing.  Since a lot of people or court consider conceal carry a privilege, not a right, we are now in a catch-22 situation.  This is especially true if open carry were illegal in some states.  Imagine you live in a state where you are denied conceal carry because of decades ago you went into a hospital to treat "gender dysphoria", but every single homophobe and racist and closet klansmen could get a conceal....



Werz Waldeau

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 09:43:55 PM »
A careful study of local state laws you will find a lot of states have blanket, no due-process prohibition for conceal carry application in terms of metal health issues.  This ranging from disallowing someone having a conceal carry simply for being a diagnosed with a mental illness of any sort, to having been voluntarily entered a psychiatric hospital once, to explicitly listing certain illnesses that is irrelevant but can disqualify an individual.
If you have made a "careful study" of these laws, perhaps you could share with us which states prohibit firearm ownership for mental incompetency without an adjudication by some sort of tribunal?

BuddhaFett

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2016, 02:33:48 AM »
Yes I would also like to know what state and local areas are depriving people of their rights without due process.
Quote from: James Earl Jones
The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.

rivet_42

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 04:58:15 PM »
Oklahoma asks whether you've been treated for any form of mental illness in the last three years.  If you have, you may be disqualified.

https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/MENTAL%20HEALTH%20CERT.%20FORM.pdf

conradin

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 01:57:59 PM »
Two ways to look at it:  All trans can be denied CCW by sheriff for "lack of good moral character" (an individual interpretation).  Unlike LGB, it is difficult for a lot of transgender people to pass. 
California Connecticut Delaware Georgia Hawaii Indiana Massachusetts New Hampshire New Jersey New York Rhode Island.
As for mental issue, there are many states.  Take MI as an example. You are also banned for life if you currently has a diagnosis of any mental illness, regardless of whether you are being treated or not.  In NV, any voluntary admission to a mental hospital within the last 5 years disqualify you, as does Georgia, as does IL, as does MS.  TX is even more specific, that even if you are fine, your illness is in remission due to medication, and you have been to hospital voluntarily; or also simply disqualify you for having specific illnesses such as bipolar disorder or anti-social personality disorder. 
Many states automatically put lifetime ban if you have been involuntarily committed. MI being an example. 

You can go here for the basics: http://www.ncsl.org/research/civil-and-criminal-justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

Not every state has the word "adjudicated" in their laws.  Not every state also allows a restoration certification either.  That is the main problem.

gerhard1

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 04:57:28 PM »
It occurs to me that you are being a bit to pessimistic as far as other states are concerned, conradin.  Most of the states are very good about issuing carry licenses to anyone who meets their legal requirements.


Sarah Dreamcrusher

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2016, 05:36:34 PM »
There's some secondary concerns regarding being trans and carrying, but those are highly correlated with living someplace trans folks aren't well accepted by the justice system, being too poor for to afford a good lawyer after a use of force, or comorbid mental health issues, rather than being transgender just by itself.

It's also a very good reason to support shall-issue concealed carry laws rather than discretionary issue of weapons carry permits.

Branth

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2016, 02:34:45 AM »
You're absolutely right that may-issue states are very problematic with regards to 2nd amendment rights.  This is the crux of the argument for passing shall-issue CCW laws, which the gun rights community has been pressing for years, and which have been hugely successful in the past decade or so.

provvv

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2016, 07:45:48 AM »
So if one goes to a private therapist with private insurance or even govt subsidized insurance, and they diagnose them (which if you're using insurance they have to diagnose them  with something pretty much), then that can be grounds for prohibiting gun ownership? CCW? Or Both?

I mean, what if someone goes to a therapist bc a grandparent died or a bad break up? I just can't imagine that would prevent someone from owning a gun.

 I'm wondering if these diagnoses that are the basis of denials are from when people are institionalized and then diagnosed as a result? Even so, though, don't patients have a right to privacy?

Branth

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2016, 10:54:46 AM »
I'm pretty sure you have to be committed, but I could be wrong.

You're right, though.  There's a tremendous disincentive to seek treatment if you're fearful of permanently losing your gun rights.

Werz Waldeau

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 05:52:57 PM »
I'm pretty sure you have to be committed, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you must be involuntarily committed.

gerhard1

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 04:11:10 PM »
I'm pretty sure you have to be committed, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you must be involuntarily committed.
Quite so.

gerhard1

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 07:14:29 AM »
So if one goes to a private therapist with private insurance or even govt subsidized insurance, and they diagnose them (which if you're using insurance they have to diagnose them  with something pretty much), then that can be grounds for prohibiting gun ownership? CCW? Or Both?

I mean, what if someone goes to a therapist bc a grandparent died or a bad break up? I just can't imagine that would prevent someone from owning a gun.

 I'm wondering if these diagnoses that are the basis of denials are from when people are institionalized and then diagnosed as a result? Even so, though, don't patients have a right to privacy?
That, by itself, would not; at least not in the more reasonable locations.  They can only deny the right to arms if the person is a danger to him/herself or others.   

They do, but it is not absolute.  If the therapist/helper feels that the person being helped is going to harm someone, they are required to report this to the appropriate authorities.

soulquest

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2016, 12:13:41 PM »
In states with "no permit concealed carry"
Alaska
Arizona
Idaho
Kansas
Maine
Missouri (starting Jan 1, 2017)
Vermont
West Virginia
Wyoming
I would say non of the mental health issues would be a problem with CC since no permit is required as long as you are a citizen of that state. You still can apply for a CC permit, with likely will have reciprocity to other states.

Cholly

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Re: Catch 22 (Trans and Conceal Carry)
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2016, 08:56:45 AM »
For Georgia the entirety of what it says is:
"Licenses will not be issued to any person:

    Who has been hospitalized as an inpatient in any mental hospital or alcohol or drug treatment center within five years of the date of his or her application."

I would take that to mean that after 5 years, you should be good to go with no further requirements on your part. As long as you haven't run afoul of federal mental health requirements.

Georgia is a "shall issue" state. As far as they're concerned with me though, is that even though I'm a cranky old bastard, and been armed pretty much my entire life, I haven't shot anyone so far, so I'm not likely to unless severely threatened. I'm an ally, so I haven't actually had to deal with trans issues on a day-to-day basis here. I don't even know any trans folks here in Georgia. Got some gay relations here, but nobody "T". So I have to admit that I have no clue.